The Perilous State of the University: Jonathan Haidt & Jordan B Peterson

The Perilous State of the University: Jonathan Haidt & Jordan B Peterson
Danny Hutson

100 thoughts on “The Perilous State of the University: Jonathan Haidt & Jordan B Peterson

  1. Joe Scarborough (goofy though he may be) expressed very emotionally how painful his experience in university was. He felt like the only conservative willing to speak out. I felt very sad for him.

  2. Religious zealots are very afraid of any opposition to their dogma and now liberals are going toward that. We now have liberal zealots. I’m a liberal but am very concerned about brittle political correctness.

  3. I enjoy these conversations with Jordan Peterson. They are so enlightening. I have personally grown since I first began to listen to people like Haidt, Peterson, Harris, Pinker, Dennet and others.

  4. I hate when Haidt spontaneously lowers the volume of his voice.. It means I have to have the volume way too high for most of the video or I won't hear certain bits 😩😡

  5. since teachers pensions invest billions in defense industry and lockheed martin, i think teachers are by definition not liberal or maybe just ignorant that there funding yemen holocausts

  6. 37:36 It's worth pointing out that what he's describing here is essentially the definition of "microaggression." I bet that many people here are inclined to ridicule the concept of microaggressions when proposed by social justice advocates while probably believing Haidt's description of the same thing directed against conservative faculty. It's a good reminder that these arguments are subtle. In fact, there is probably some validity to the concept of MA's, it's just that acknowledging their partial validity doesn't imply that SJA's are right about everything, or that their attempts to stop MA's 'by any means necessary' is acceptable.

  7. 1:08:00, clinically speaking, isn't a safe space necessary for a vulnerable person in combination with exposure? If a person is only ever exposed and never feels safe, that can just be traumatic and damaging, right? My understanding is the problem is not the idea of a safe space, but rather the attempt to make the entire university a safe space which is untenable. After all, a therapist's office is also considered a "safe space", right? It's a safe space for a person to process their feelings and feel supported while dealing with the stress of exposure therapy.

  8. As for having kids later, millennials will certainly tell you its because millenials have more debt and less spending power than previous generations have had at the same age. I don't know for sure if this is true but I sure hear it a lot. Of course, go back far enough and people get poorer and also have more kids, but I think in the past there were other reasons to have more kids, such as poor medicine and the fact that your kids could actually do some of the work. Now there is very little mortality and kids are economically useless until after 18, so people would only have them when they feel prepared to support them for the next two decades at least.

  9. While I continue to think that Peterson is very wrong about religion I have come to the conclusion that he asks many other questions that are very worthy of deep thought and offers ideas worth considering. And Haidt is always sheer pleasure to listen to.

  10. A fascinating discussion with the two coolest dudes in North America. I totally loose track of time when I listen to either of these two great men speak. I read Hadit's book, The Righteous Mind back in like 2015. I came across Jordan Peterson just a few months ago in a Youtube video on how to argue effectively (featuring his interview with Cathy Newman). Since then I have watched several hours of his classroom videos on his site. I was going to send him an e-mail saying he should consider adding The Righteous Mind to his recommended reading list till I came across this video…Of course they have known each other for over 20 years.
    I totally agree with Karen's comment below. Only if I am being honest, it was Robbin Williams tragic death that moved these guys to the top of my "People I want to meet before I die" list.

  11. Hmm. Interesting! Haidt says he thinks schools should forbid young earth creationists from access to education in geology programs? I'm… not sure that's a coherent approach likely to have optimal results for society. How about just not compromising in how geology is TAUGHT, but allowing anyone in (even those you think are profoundly misguided) so that they can learn a bit from you, and you can probably learn a bit from their unique perspective too (even if it's just where certain weak spots in your argument are so you can strengthen them)? Similar to the social sciences. Let the lunatic SJWs study as students… but don't let them teach. Let them get the grades their ideas are worth (probably too low to graduate — but you never know! Here and there you might get an interesting perspective from them worth considering further). But I'm skeptical of Haidt's conclusion (though I understand the instinct) that banning students (however crazy we might think them) from entry into university programs in the right approach. Let them flunk out if they earn failing grades — DEFINITELY. Conform the curriculum to their crazy demands — definitely NOT. But let them in the door to study? I'd say: 'Yes'. And just don't be afraid to let them fail (whether their mental health isn't up to it, or their intellect isn't up to it, etc).

    Unless I'm misunderstanding and he's talking about screening criteria for faculty. But it sure sounds like he's talking about screening students.

    I get Haidt's panic — I do. But in reaching for an immediate stop-gap measure (banning students he thinks 'problematic' from entering in the first place), he's falling into a leftist trap and tendency (banning people/ideas), and he's missing an obvious solution: the universities should Man Up, basically. Embrace the 'hierarchical patriarchy' (or whatever) of setting academic standards and then holding people to them. You don't have to ban students — you just have to stop letting them walk all over you. Support your professors to TEACH (and to not have to fear their students). Dismiss 100% of "racism/sexism" complaints that don't come with incontrovertible video evidence showing both act and unmistakeable intent such that a reasonable person (not a crazy person) would consider a complaint justified, so professors don't have to live in fear of smears. Don't be afraid to grade stupid student assertions with an 'F'. Don't be afraid to let them flunk out of their classes or school (don't interpret the university's obligation to students as including 'graduation' — NO ONE is entitled to graduate without having proven adequate competence in their field! If students of any given year(s) are uniquely incompetent, even en masse, don't be afraid to flunk them all). Don't artificially subsidize their incompetence; if they need to improve their mental health before being present on campus, let them run into that roadblock. Don't put universities in the position of being nanny of mentally incompetent mobsters. THAT'S the untenable position. If you just hold your ground and refuse to cower before the crazies, you solve the problem. These people RELY on institutions crumbling before them. Just don't crumble. When you calmly don't give in to them, they're actually not strong.

  12. If universities like the University of Chicago are really concerned about truth, then they should not be charging $51000 plus a year for it . Truth should not only be available to those that can afford it. I wonder if he recommends any other universities that are affordable?

  13. JH imho is a genuine intellectual. Honest liberals will eventually come to the conservative side because the moral grounding is more "grounded". Peterson is more precise in his use of language/speech than Haidt. It is obvious.

  14. OMG. I'm so late to this party. I have known and followed Dr. Peterson for a while now but I found out about Dr. Haidt only after he came on Bill Maher. Hated the part where Bill kept interrupting Dr. Haidt. Then I watched NYU School of Law's The Forum with Dr. Haidt, just finished reading Coddling of The American Mind (the book) two days back, and here I am, discovering the two legends sharing ideas and wisdom. Wish this video never ended.

  15. Perrearon is a clinical psychologist. Haidt is a social psychologist, so when it comes to talk and explain social behavior and issues, Haidt is who has all the expertise and answers. Peterson is better at focusing at create personal introspective, so he is more like a personal coach for a lot of people. In many ways, both doing a great job, but there are certain things I completely disagree with Peterson. Excellent talk though.

  16. I've read The Righteous Mind and it opens up so much more stuff that's going on around us. Even though I've told people this (some professors) they don't listen to what I'm telling them that's within his book.

  17. 10:38 Actually, Austrian philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein was the first one to suggest that notion in his "Philosophische Untersuchungen" when he wrote about language games: "If a lion could speak, we could not understand him."

  18. I have listened to this video several times and I am compelled to beg to differ with Dr. Haidt about his description of the right at this point 38:23, it is imperative to note the following that I have been contemplating for the past 13 years (Michael Savage got me onto this in 2005). IT IS NOT THE RIGHT that has/had moved farther to the right, it only APPEARS this way and, it’s through the media and other forces that the LEFT ( from the mid 1970’s ) has ever so imperceptibly, slightly, and slowly ( over time ) moved the center of the political spectrum to the right and has taken up and convoluted the right’s territory so as to make it appear as though the right are/were all extremists, even the sane ones who USED to occupy the area slightly to the right of center ! Demonizing them even if they are/were anywhere right of the Old original correct center. It took me a very long time to realize this, I too thought that the right had moved farther right, it’s simply NOT true, and then I thought “ satan you sneaky little fucking brilliant bastard !”. You manipulated these poor fucking unwitting humans into believing things about the political spectrum that don’t exist, just another reason why satan will spend an eternity in the lake of fire !

  19. I question the Mr P who seems to think he is saying something new. I except that he knows something. It is not news.

  20. man, it's a rare thing to see two people who are genuinely interested in discussing rationally about topics.

  21. I'm trying to get a scholarship from the University of Toronto in psychology.
    Dr. Peterson better not leave there before I arrive.

  22. Awesome dialogue. I wish I could redo the audio processing tho. Its unbearable on headphones. I guess that means ill vote republican too funny enough hahaha

  23. It is a personal tragedy that compared to these two, I am so primitive, uncultured, unaware, unable to speak clearly, succinctly and with such breath of topics. I wish there was such a thing as mentor-ship of of the mind.

  24. its exciting to see these two men together…i have started following both on youtube separately..wonderful to see they had a previous connection.

  25. 12:40 Peterson is always harping on us to clean our rooms. People with clean rooms are more likely to vote conservative. Illuminati confirmed?

  26. 51:37 I'm glad to see that somebody else has observed that the illiberal (or whatever) disease is a peculiarly Five Eyes phenomenon. I think there are some reasons for this: (1) these are all post-colonial, post-imperial countries, which have a history of severe exploitation in their founding and development, resulting in conflict with the newly-woken exploited and dispossessed races; (2) the English language is very gender-neutral, unlike Romance languages, and even more so, the Slavonic languages (where even verbs are gendered). Hence complex feelings of guilt regarding race and a disconnection between sex and gender are more likely to grow and express themselves in countries like the UK, US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand than in France, Italy, Poland and Russia, say. Furthermore, the Five Eyes have chosen to repopulate largely by immigration, whereas Eastern Europeans want to replicate themselves and preserve their identities. These social evolutionary processes perhaps affect how individuals on average behave.

  27. From 1:30 onward is the crux of the matter. Teachers have responsibilities to their students and their parents. To use the children or young people for indoctrination of your own ideology is a failure of professionalism.

  28. I would love to see a conversation between Jordan Peterson and David Sloan Wilson. It seems like there's a great deal of overlap between their ideas. That would be very interesting.

  29. “We have a duty to speak the truth and educate not indoctrinate”

    Love this, must speak truth as see it 💕

  30. All this is a result of opinion journalism taking center stage beginning around the turn of the millennium with massive investments into CNN and FOX. Turning opinion and polarization into profits. That coinciding with drastic improvements in communications that offer a platform for espousing opinions on social networks. There used to be 5 channels the whole country would watch. In a way we were tamed by them. When social networking came along suddenly there were 300 million different channels and everyone was tuned in to a different one. Click bait journalism soon ensued then huge corporations risking %50 of their customer base by politicizing their ads. Thats all. We are living in a new age of information. If you trace back the lineage of the most violent conflicts in world history they usually coincided with drastic improvements in communications. It’s actually pretty terrifying what these two are talking about. We could possibly be seeing exactly what happened in the early stages of nazism. The silent majority afraid to stand up for fear of repercussions. What happens when these people totally infiltrate our governments?

  31. These are the calmer heads that prevail. In 2040 we'll look back at all of this and these 2 will stand above as voices of reason.

  32. I can't keep up. It is an act of intellectual fluidity, and surprisingly beautiful like a Bach fugue. That this level of discourse is declining in society is lamentable, but for universities to discontinue it and the Socratic method, and encourage Postmodernism is a disaster of the highest order.

    Thank you, Professor Peterson. You are doing us all a great service.

  33. I was talking the other day about this agression/play in kids, then I realised… isn't this what happens to with sex/sexual aggression where people now cannot tell apart rape and saying that someone looks nice? Isn't the same thing? Any thoughts?

  34. What a pleasure to hear Dr. Peterson talking to someone at his level. It’s so rare that anyone comes close. That made this video a true joy to listen to despite the gravity of the topic. I feel slightly more optimistic hearing some of Dr. Haitd’s ideas for solutions and also that there are some initiatives already underway with results that are looking positive thus far.

    I’m late in viewing this. At the time of this writing, this video is over a year old, so I’m going to take a look to see if there’s an update. If there isn’t, I’d like to suggest this exercise be repeated at least once a year to give us an update on how both feel things are going in the universities. I’d be very interested to hear thoughts on how things appear to be trending.

  35. It's stereotyping to say that the right is conservative and the left is progressive, and it's a false construct. Trump supporters, for instance, are against the status quo, because it's extremist n left-wing , n leftists are in favour of it for the same reasons. A tax cut is a change, so it's not conservative. And rightists have reform parties and advocate political and judicial reforms. Luddites are left-wing, and the people most against space exploration are leftists. And most scientists are leftists and are ultra-conservative. Etc. etc. And political 'correctnes'' is very repressive, intolerant, and illiberal, and is very far to the left and very fundamentally leftist, n, in fact, originated in communism, n is sometimes called cultural communism. So the political spectrum can't be framed as 'conservative right' n 'liberal left,' it can only be framed as right and left. And just because a child is more cautious doesn't necessarily mean he or she is particulary conservative. And there's positive change and negative change, a fact which doesn't seem to be recognized.

  36. "When you throw out a sophisticated religious structure, an unsophisticated religious structure comes in to fill the gap." -JP

    Holy crap, that's huge. I can't believe he said that as a passing thought.

  37. Haidt doesn't agree with most of Peterson's delusional ramblings. In fact, Haidt is quite the anti-rationalist, and Peterson seems to glorify rationalism and reason.

  38. This isn't just a problem in schools, or police, or institutions, this is something fundamentally happening at every level of government and the vast majority of business operating in or targeting north american and european nations.
    It is completely pervasive and fucking TERRIFYING that so much as being an artist, or a writer, you have to worry about drawing or writing something that someone disagrees with, and being permanently labeled. I've seen so many artists who are preempting this by completely shutting out communities that they loved working with because they might potentially be targeted in the future.

  39. I'm studying social work in Australia and I'm so frustrated by the lack of encouragement to criticize ideas. I had a professor who told me if I did an essay that criticized feminism I would get an instant fail because it's not in consensus with the majority of evidence. I actually really disrespect the discipline at this point it's just tribalism.

  40. How did I not see this video. I even saw JBP live the other week in Melbourne. What an amazing discussion.
    Everyone should see this.

  41. Minute 51:50 they say it is only in the Anglo countries that this is happening, no man! here in Chile is the same shit. I study psychology and I am literally afraid to disagree in class, even though, I always positioned myself on the left

  42. Anyone wondering how these 2 brilliant minds can be so humble…? And why is it we are voting for politicians in the 1st place…?

  43. Has anyone found the article that Jordan describes about self-organization of the brain that was reviewed in Ray Kurzweil's book? I would be very interested in reading that.

  44. As a musician I never would have imagined that an intellectual conversation could be as entertaining as any form of art. Discussions like these are a breath of fresh air in today's world.

  45. -Admire these two their books are so much to digest but actually something deep and important to humanity in this day and age of so much junk.

  46. I disagree with the Jonathan's premise that "everything is a social construct". That's akin to saying that floatation is a social construct when we see a leaf on the surface of water. A boat MAY be a social construct in that the innateness of the leaf floating on the surface due to relative weight displacement over a liquid, may be replicated by the construction of a device that mimics the proper proportions of displacement.
    Their subsequent allowance of the "underlying biological reality" is acknowledged but diminished in importance or result. This diminishment, again, is counter to my leaf analogy in that, if we removed the physics of weight displacement, then the social construct of boats is meaningless.
    Construct implies an action taken by a group or individual to build. This is why objects such as the pyramids or skyscrapers hold a certain awe about them as marvels of human cohesion toward a singular expression.
    I think that there are intellectual constructs that individuals may agree upon. Some may even be agreed upon by many, but I know of none that are universal.
    Once agreed upon, they then become a social expression, but not a construct.
    Ideas don't become social constructs, they may become social expressions. We don't organize to think a certain thing. We converse and debate and persuade. Whoever has the dominating position by virtue of strength, reason, majority, etc. gets to proscribe the winning or agreed upon expression. Then, to observe from a distance, becomes a construct.
    In that vein, I think that gender may be a sexual or social expression, but not a construct. Society didn't decide that biological males may express themselves as women. Individuals did. Society, as represented by individuals, may or may not agree with that.
    Everything that individuals and, ergo, societies have agreed upon about gender come after the fact of the physics, i.e. biology.
    My ideas, in the works, at present. I'd love to get some feedback.

  47. Funny they don’t consider biological change as a catalyst for the leftists transformation. Philosophers are blessed with the intellect of gods, but they often forget they live in a society of insects

  48. Man that guy talking to Jordan …his voice is all over the place, varying pitch & volume.can hardly hear him at times….JUST HIM!

  49. Man that guy talking to Jordan …his voice is all over the place, varying pitch & volume.can hardly hear him at times….JUST HIM!

  50. Jordan, please consider some audio processing like dynamic compression. Jonathan Haidt has LOTS of diversity in audio volume, which makes quiet moments very hard to hear and then he gets really loud and blasts the listener. Running the recording through that processing will even it out more and be more pleasant. Otherwise with speakers like this, it can really be maddening to listen to.

  51. In my kids school in denmark, my kids are not allowed to choose who they play with in recess, they are assigned kids to play with, and they are not allowed to combine groups or teams. There are some kids that exploit that by lying about kids leaving/teasing them if they wont play the game they decided. They say it is better for them, and we have to believe them because they where taught pedagogy.

  52. This can heal our country ! Long form discussions with our great thinkers and live comments so people can understand what's at stake. and we absolutely need to love our neighbors and even go out of our way to treat people with respect that deserve it and work on helping the people who dont instead of isolating them.

  53. To be fair… Evolution theory is seriously flawed though. I wouldn't consider it anti-science. I would consider those who don't want to reject the hypothesis when given many evidence stating that their hypothesis is wrong anti-science.

  54. Perhaps conservatives are more practical. They don't consider studying sociology as a good life choice…

  55. Two beacons of reason, rationality and enlightenment in the era of quasi-progresivist (that is PC/anti-risk-taking/men-demonizing feminist/postmodernist/collectivist/ victimhood-propagating SJWs/perpetual adolescent culture advocating/anti-accountability entitlement seeking) tyranny

  56. Westernism post-enlightenment perhaps is sterile. It has a sterile morality, a sterile population. I love the west but I worry for it because it can't get in its body, and anger too for that matter.

  57. Two men who interested me in delving deeper into the realm of psychology. Now considering it for graduate study. So, it’s been confusing but also a blessing!

  58. There is a parallel in Economics. Providing so called "safety net" which is basically free money without a purpose is EXACTLY opposite of what we should be doing to the so called poor in this country.

  59. Jordan & Jonathan. The neo-marxistis left had already secured the vote of the "poor" by making them economically dependent on higher authority aka govenment. Now the same left has successfully conqured the young mind by making then "morally dependent " to higher authority. This GenZ is incapable of functioning on their own , they need the "govenment" even for their mere existance. The left has created a situation which makes this Genz feel "un-safe" and will perpetually vote for the "savior".
    Lot of parallels to the politics of the "economically poor" and the "morally poor" people. And I think this is very deliberate and viciously well orchestrated.

  60. The problem is that we’re still trying to compartmentalize the Left-Right paradigm when in fact, that paradigm was created by deceptive Hegelian practitioners to cause society to be at odds with itself, to the end of avoiding the overthrow of the powers that be, whether by democratic means or by force.

    Left- Right paradigm isn’t real – it is a construct (for those post-modernists out there that want to talk about constructed socio-economic realities). Know how I know this? Because the moment I decided to step away from party lines, I began to take on a portfolio of perspectives, characteristics, values etc. that normally are not found together but are viewed by sociologists with an “either / or” scenario.

    I’m open-minded, naturally “progressive” in my ability to forsake traditions of men but yet my values align themselves with a very ancient set of beliefs that “the Left” would say is dogmatic and backwards. I’m neither accepted by the Left nor the Right because I am able and often do pick and choose what I will embrace from either side and throw away anything that is inconsistent with reality and Truth, based on my thoughtful research and learning. This is simply because my allegiance is to Truth rather than tradition, popular opinion or post-modern viewpoints or some “team” and I have found that often times both parties are guilty of the same sorts of things that they condemn “the other” for, albeit each has a different manifestation of their hypocrisy.

    Point is, when you step outside of the Left-Right paradigm, you begin taking on all the healthy and helpful aspects of each party’s perspectives and you’ll begin throwing away the stuff that isn’t validated on a factual basis interpreted by sound logic, providing consistent results. Get it right: when you curse party lines, you’ll begin gravitating towards viewpoints backed by:

    Facts, interpreted w/ sound logic
    and proven as such by demonstrating consistent, accurate results, observable in the real world.

    Admittedly though, there seems to be considerably less healthy and helpful viewpoints coming from the left, or perhaps let’s say “liberal” mindsets with a twinge of left politics. I would say in general, their helpful ideas are as follows:

    1) Question of authority and the mainstream system’s benevolence.

    Given that I believe there are nefarious, unseen forces at work in this world, I couldn’t agree more. Question the mainstream narrative – it is probably leaving something out or is altogether fabricated. Ironically, the Left is the group that is doling out this mainstream narrative, so apply their own tenets against them!

    2) Individualism – celebrate the differences. I agree here, but not at the expense of ostracizing individuals that hold traditional characteristics, such as being a straight, white male. The Left has invalidated their benevolence in this cause by simply dishing out a form of bigotry and discrimination towards those they claim are guilty of the same.

    3) Take care of the needy – I agree here, but because it is a Biblical idea in the Torah – to tend to the orphans, widows and sick. But it also expects us to do so on a PERSONAL basis, not by the “collective”.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *